Seriously, fandom?

[nilchance]

Chub!Jensen controversy and now a big-bang set in an obesity research center?

Trigger. Biiiiig trigger.

I am sore tired of catching this merry fat-hating bullshit every time I turn on the TV ("now on Dr. G, Medical Examiner: OBESITY CRISIS OBESITY FATTY FATTY FAT FAT DEAAAAATH!"), but fandom too, for serious?

Argh.

ETA: Also, okay. I understand that the underlying message is that Jensen has to come to love himself. HOWEVER. It comes with the understanding that Jensen is expressing his love for himself by losing the weight "for Jared", to go find Jared and love and enlightenment and that.

Here's the thing. Very rarely do fat people actually get that way by cramming fast food and abusing their bodies. They get there through genetics, or thyroid issues, or antidepressants (hi there!), or a history of yo-yo dieting that resets their resting point of ideal weight. A history of eating disorders. So forcing one's body into a thinner shape by exercising to exhaustion (thus making exercise an unpleasant chore that one HAS to do to BEAT OBESITY), or limiting calories to deprivation, is a shock to one's system. It's not necessarily self-love, though it may be motivated by the desire to be lovable or to live longer (because of fear of obesity killing them) or because they can't be happy until they're thin.

Self-love is unrelated to a number on a scale. It's recognizing one's worth, unconnected to one's weight. The beauty of your body as it is, flaws and all, not as it could be. Pursuing health is an awesome thing, and a great way to love yourself, but pursuing thinness is not the same thing.

Comments

[beanside.livejournal.com]

I love you. Thank you for being my knight in shining armor.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

Always, baby.

[embroiderama]

Yeah. I'm torn between wanting to read that story and being terribly squicked by the thought. And that's pretty much my life right there. :\

Pursuing health is an awesome thing, and a great way to love yourself, but pursuing thinness is not the same thing.

Yes, yes, that!

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

It's... I have a lot of problems with it. Um, obviously. Least of all that it triggered both me and T.

[poisontaster]

There's also a correlation, in that kind of story, that to be fat, CLEARLY YOU DO *NOT* LOVE YOURSELF, because otherwise, why would you be fat? And... *sighs*

[ixchel55.livejournal.com]

The weird weight-loss guru Richard Simmons totally turned me off with his motto "Inside every fat person is a skinny person crying to be free" and with the statement (literally) that a person who's fat can't be happy with themselves.

Sad to be filled with so much self-hatred.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

On one hand, I found the story quite compelling -- but on the other, it made me horrifically uncomfortable. Which I didn't really realize until a while after I'd finished reading. Parts of it kind of made me feel like all I've done to accept myself has been... well, lying to myself, in a way. Does that make sense? Like maybe it's not acceptance or self-love, but just more excuses. Even though I know, intellectually, that it's not. Some parts of it almost felt like listening to my mother's preferred attack plan, the "you have to do this so you don't die" (and no bloodwork would ever convince her that my cholesterol levels are within the norm). I don't know, in a way, I kind of wish I hadn't read the story now, even though I did initially leave the author a very nice comment. Ugh, now I'm kind of feeling uncomfortable about leaving this comment here, as well, since I probably should be bringing this up with the author, instead.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Hi, you don't know me, but I'm nilchance's wife.

I want to hug you right now. Sorry if that seems weird. That's precisely why I posted, and why Jess posted, because I read it, and it triggered me right back into sitting in the doctor's office and being told I should have a surgery that has a 10% chance of killing me, because it would make me lose weight. I felt like I was being told I'd be better dead than fat.

There is nothing wrong with you. You are awesome. It was a well written technically. If it hadn't been, it wouldn't have affected me so much. But that doesn't mean it's correct, or healthy.

You know that you are healthy. You know that you're strong. And I can totally see why you wouldn't want to say it to the author. She obviously believes what she's saying, so I wouldn't presume that there would be support there.

Anyway, just, y'know. Be you. It's more than enough.

[liptonrm.livejournal.com]

Oh, What.The.Fuck. people?

It's attitudes and perceptions like that that make me not take anti-fat rhetoric seriously. I'm not fat because I hate myself I'm fat because I'm fat and while societal impressions can be a factor in how I feel about myself on any given day I know that I won't love myself more if I lose weight. That's just facts.

Strangely enough, most of the overweight people I know are extremely healthy. They eat well, they don't have excessive amounts of cholesterol or other worrisome factors and when they do have health problems they're generally unrelated to their weight.

There's so much bad information that's just generally accepted as wisdom in the healthcare community, about this topic in particular, and, of course, if a doctor says it it has to be true. Whatever, people. Just, whatever.

I didn't read the story because, well, I don't read every Big Bang and it didn't sound like something I'd enjoy. And now I'm really glad I didn't. Thank you.

[darling-lisa.livejournal.com]

I'm not fat because I hate myself I'm fat because I'm fat and while societal impressions can be a factor in how I feel about myself on any given day I know that I won't love myself more if I lose weight. That's just facts.

THIS.

You completely summed up what I have been trying to figure out how to say since I saw that story pop up on my flist.

Thank you.

[cdeacon.livejournal.com]

I know we don't know each other, but I just wanted to say how grateful I am to both you and beanside for posting about this. Seeing pretty much every weight-related stereotype dragged out in that fic was triggering like nobody's business. Thanks for saying something.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

Aww, no problem. *smish*

[jane-eyre.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying this. I'm so tired of people seeing somebody that is overweight and hating them because of it. As you say so many different things can factor into somebody being overweight and most of the time it isn't overeating.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I hear you. I'm still fighting my internal "omg you're hideous, fatty!" internal program every time I look in the mirror; I don't need to hear it from anybody else.

[yanzadracan.livejournal.com]

You go girl! I couldn't have said it better. My mother went through that, and now I'm running into the same problems. Always happy to see others stand and tell the skinny people of the world to mind their own business.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I've gotten just as much if not MORE crap from people of size who have bought into the "obesity crisis"; unfortunately, nobody is immune. But thank you!

[takobella.livejournal.com]

hmmm I found this so interesting to read and take in your view of the story. I read it last night and I have to say while I didn't see it as a story promoting the idea that to love yourself you have to be skinny...I can see how thats sort of the message you got.

I come from a family where being twenty pounds overwieght is DEATH...let alone 100 or more like in the story. So reading this story was like having my grandma's voice chirping in my head the whole way through...yet I totally loved it. lol

so ya...I don't really know where I'm going with this hahahaha. Just that I totally appreciate hearing different views on stories I've read...it helps give me a different perspective on life :)

[amalthia]

In my family fat and 40 = diabetes. :( One of my grandmother's sister lost her leg due to the illness and died rather young due to complications. So I've kind of had eating healthy and exercising drilled in my head from my grandmother who does not want any of us in her situation.

[ixchel55.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I gave that story a big pass. I knew it was going no where I wanted to go.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

That makes you wayyyy wiser than me. ;)

[plainjanejones0.livejournal.com]

I agree with your rant in theory. I don't like it as a plot device nor the implications it tries to make about North American culture in general.

But you know what I am sore tired of? Skinny-hating bullshit, kind of like your icon. So fat people are allowed many reasons for the weight that they may or may not consider to be an issue or a problem, including, but not limited to genetics, or thyroid issues, or antidepressants (hi there!), or a history of yo-yo dieting that resets their resting point of ideal weight. A history of eating disorders. But skinny people only weigh what they do from either not eating enough or attempting to conform to the unreasonable standards of beauty that the fashion industry imposes upon us? Hello, there double-standard!

[allthelivesofme.livejournal.com]

Hm. Myself, I saw the icon as a jab at the 'unreasonable standards of beauty that the fashion industry imposes upon us' rather than some kind of "I hate skinny people" statement.

This is going to get rambly, so bear with me >_>

[oaktree89.livejournal.com]

You make some very good points, and I agree with almost all of them. I personally have a lot of issues surrounding the fat acceptance/weight loss/etc. controversy, and I certainly agree that it's a complicated issue.

I've struggled with my weight my entire life. I've been thin, I've been fat, and I've been many places in between, but I've never felt comfortable in my body. So I do recognize that thinness and fatness are really not connected to a healthy body image. That comes from a very different place.

However, I do also want to say that in my case (and in many others, though of course not all, or even most), people become overweight through overeating. Now, it depends on what your definition of overeating is, but mine is eating because of stress and not because of hunger, because of sadness and not because of hunger, because of insecurity and not because of hunger.

When I went through two jars of nutella a day, plus my normal diet, that was overeating, and that caused me to gain fifty pounds in eight months.

Of course, I'd also nearly stopped exercising entirely, so I wasn't fit. My diet was very high sugar, and I came down with a yeast infection. I was in Bad Health.

Then I left university at the end of the year. I've been home a month. I've lost ten pounds. I still weigh more that I "should" (and a hell of a lot more than I have in the past), but I feel ten thousand times better, and I'm closer now, and 195 pounds, to accepting my body for what it is at this moment in time than I was at 135. This is because I've been exercising and eating very healthy foods. This is because I've been reading Kate Harding's blog. This is because I'm not beating myself up mentally because I'm "fat".

When I read that big bang, I honestly didn't see any of the politics that others did. I identified with Jensen's self-hatred- that it is your fault (in part, rarely in entirety- genes have some responsibility, too!), that you have hurt yourself (if not in being fat, than in hating yourself for being fat), etc. etc.

I do see that there are some elements of the story that are problematic. But the whole issue is so complicated.

Re: This is going to get rambly, so bear with me >_>

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

I agree, the issue is complicated.

[allthelivesofme.livejournal.com]

Aaaaaand now I know a Big Bang I should skip. :-P Also, one of these days I'm planning to start a novel with a fat protagonist and the end of the novel will not involve her losing weight and suddenly feeling so much better about herself happy rainbow kittens yay!! Pfffft.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

*grabs poms poms and cheers you on!*

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

Man, I missed seeing that one earlier, and now -- well, I have probably made my feelings about the whole jubjub bullshit clear in my own journal, and this? Has the potential to do baaaaad things to my blood pressure.

Thank you for speaking out. Going to copy this comment to your spouse's LJ.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the whole thing did great damage to my calm. I still am glad that I said something. Thank you.

[siubhlach.livejournal.com]

Pursuing health is an awesome thing, and a great way to love yourself, but pursuing thinness is not the same thing.

And maybe one day, if we're really, really lucky, the mass media *shudder*, and society as a whole will eventually comprehend that health and beauty are not equated to thinness and then maybe we can progress beyond "I hate the way I look" which is far too tied into "Society tells me I look fat, ugly and hideous and my life would be better if I could only lose that weight."

I shan't start my rant about the BMI *snarl* because comment boxes are only so big.

I will say this though; anyone who believes their intrinsic life happiness is tied into their weight is probably in for a nasty surprise if they do manage to lose it. If you hate yourself when you're fat, why do you think you'll feel any different about who you are just because there's physically less of you?

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

That thing about happiness = weight is what keeps the diet industry going - it's the same basic advertising concept as a certain brand of beer meaning you'll suddenly be surrounded by hot babes, and because of the social pressure about being fat, we're so desperate that we'll believe anything.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of things we can do that make us feel better about ourselves that have nothing to do with losing weight.

Also, I totally agree with your BMI rant. :) (I've had it in for those stupid height = weight charts and the entire concept since I was 12. I was 5'4" and about 150. I could, at the time, carry my 100lb best friend up three flights of stairs, piggy back. I had defined muscle in my arms and legs. Some moron woman at Weight Watchers - I was there with my mom - tried to tell me I needed to lose 60 lb. WTF?)

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

dude. Am so glad someone else said something about that, because I felt too shitty today. But I started trying to read that fic (because I gotta give things a chance!) and got as far as "well, your dad and mom aren't fat, so you have no genetic excuse!" and had to close before smoke started coming out my ears.

There's now this whole big bang fic which actively OFFENDS me by existing. Is very annoying.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

When I was reading, that's the part that threw me, right away. The doctor's callous "you did this to yourself -- there is no other reason for you to be this fat". Same with the "you're going to die if you don't fix it", and "here, have some more exercise gear, because we love you". And I just kind of... fell for it. For the subsequent enthusiasm of the trainers, for the enthusiasm of the author... I told myself, I'm having this reaction because I'm being a defensive fatty, and I should look at it objectively. And today, still mulling on the story and unable to stop thinking and fretting about it, I realized that I fell for it. That I wasn't thinking objectively at all; that I SHOULD have smoke coming out of my ears.

[bkm5191.livejournal.com]

I can't even watch television adverts in English anymore, because the "fat YOU DIE" hatred is to much. It's like all the vileness that used to spread out by hate groups to everyone is distilled into one socially acceptable hate crime.

[allthelivesofme.livejournal.com]

I know! It seems every other ad is for a weight loss program or pill (I especially love the one that starts off with "does extra weight make you look like this?" with an extreme close up of people's midsections-- thanks for the extra dehumanizing tactic, jerks) and I asked mom if this has gotten worse or if I'm just paying more attention to it lately, and mom said, "Oh no, it's gotten so much worse". :-P

[deathangelgw.livejournal.com]

thank you for saying what is always hidden and ignored. I for one am one of those who wants to lose weight to have more appreciation for myself. I hate myself and can't even look in a mirror. But that is my choice. It is indeed a long process to learn to love yourself, but it's something that has to be accepted by all people in order to see their beauty. You are beautiful. I love your spirit. *hugs her*

[beanside.livejournal.com]

*hug* I'm sorry that you're so down on yourself.

If it helps, I see you as a strong, amazing, compassionate person.

I think you're beautiful.

[arabella-hope.livejournal.com]

Wait, so. Did you actually READ the story? I'm confused.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

I read enough of it to be triggered to want to slide back into an eating disorder.

[spae.livejournal.com]

I like this post.

I'm afraid the whole 'get thin to be worthy of being loved' thing is something I abhor and I hate it in fic. Seeing the fic rec'd on my flist actually made my stomach tighten with dread at the thought that I'd have to endure reading it - till I scrolled down and saw this and remembered I have control over what I read. (Duh!)

I also hate taking actors who don't have weight issues and giving them them. Not that I've seen/looked for it, but fic about Hurley from Lost would make more sense ... Jensen keeps himself gorgeous. I think a few of my issues are the fact that I hate people denigrating Jensen in this way - and feel weirdly protective. I was appalled to see a whole comm set up for lovers of fat!Jensen and just ... was totally squicked by it.

Weight is such a sensitive subject, for anyone who's ever been body-conscious, and I just can't see that someone who's ever had the issue would be able to 'make someone fat' for a fic and then 'make them get thin in order to be loved' unless they hate themselves. So I am left with the unhappy conclusion that either it's that, or they lean towards the anorexia disorders and think they know what they're talking about (!!!) or they have a regular body shape and don't have the experience/didn't think about the emotions involved at all.

It's not something I'll be reading. Thanks for expressing yourself and allowing me an outlet to voice what I think <3

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

I gotta admit, I'm not sure where the fat!Jensen thing comes from. Given that in all the photos of him available (even when he was younger, pre-Hollywood) he's relatively slim, I'm inclined to believe that's probably just what his body naturally wants to do. He might need to make a specific effort to exercise to bulk up, muscle-wise, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he's fanatically counting calories to keep the shape he has.

(There were a couple of photos I remember where he looked 'puffy', but honestly - most people look 'puffy' because of water retention, not fat. There's plenty of things that cause it, and generally it's pretty quick to go away without any massive dieting efforts.)

[katzb101.livejournal.com]

*points up to what I said to you good lady*

I'm at work and shouldn't be here *g*.

But gives you a drive by hugs (for both of you) anyway :-)

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

Aww, thank you. *smush*

[eponin10.livejournal.com]

Very rarely do fat people actually get that way by cramming fast food and abusing their bodies. They get there through genetics, or thyroid issues, or antidepressants (hi there!)

Gods, yes. I so hate that antidepressants do this. I'm on them for nerve pain, and probably will be on them for the rest of my life. I love the fact that I'm mostly pain free now, but they made me put on 50 lbs, which I hate. I wasn't skinny by any means before the meds, but I was very happy and comfortable with the way I looked, and unfortunately, the meds are making it impossible for me to get back there. *grumbles*

[unrund.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I skipped that entry at first because it sounded rather boring and not really in my area of interest. Then you posted and of course I had to read it.
So .. I didn´t actually get your impression from it. My impression was one of complete hilarity because seriously? Seriously? There is so much wrong with this that I was torn between beating my head against the desk and laughing so hard that I was in danger of choking on my own spit. I´m about 20 pounds away from that fictional characters weight and if you threw eight hours of exercise daily at me I would end up with a few torn ligaments and out of comission for a while.
I´m not even going to touch upon that 'diet', yo-yo-effect, skin flaps from losing weight too fast and the strange, strange thing of losing weight without getting stuck on one weight and not going down for a few weeks.

That is not to say it wasn´t well written, just so no one can say that I hate it because it was bad in anything other than form.

/end my two cent

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

if you threw eight hours of exercise daily at me I would end up with a few torn ligaments and out of comission for a while.

This is an excellent point. I'm pretty sure I'd vomit and pass out face down. So sexy! So romantic!

No, it was very well written. I just didn't enjoy the story. But apparently that is a bad thing to say.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

ETA: Also, okay. I understand that the underlying message is that Jensen has to come to love himself. HOWEVER. It comes with the understanding that Jensen is expressing his love for himself by losing the weight "for Jared", to go find Jared and love and enlightenment and that.

Having read the story, the "underlying message" rang very false given the staggering amount of fat hate the author managed to cram into the story. From Jensen the friendless loser virgin who spent all his time in his apartment stuffing food into his face to the doctor drilling into his head (again and again and again) that this was HIS fault, that he was a bad person for being fat, to his enrollment in a program that required participants to maintain a GROSSLY unhealthy amount of weight loss (2% of body weight every week) or be expelled, to Jared's comment that Jensen's body was like an ugly shirt he needed to take off, to Jensen's casually and repeatedly referring to the other participants as "cattle" and just to add that lovely misogynist touch, "she-cows" (and yeah, I realize this was supposed to symbolize Jensen's self-loathing, but given how much disgust for overweight people permeated the entire story, I have difficulty not reading it as an editorial comment)--the whole thing was just a mess of fat shaming, severely unrealistic expectations, and glorification of the kind of "beauty is far more important than health" shit this culture shoves down our throats at every opportunity.

I'm sure the author honestly thought she was writing about accepting yourself, and a lot of people seem to be taking it that way, but I have trouble imagining the story having any effect beyond reinforcing to readers who are unhappy with their weight that their bodies are gross, that they are to blame for it, and that they should lose any extra weight by any means necessary, health be damned.

Sorry about the repeated edits--I'm posting before coffee, which is never good idea.

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

... I think I love you.

Yes. Yes, to all that, and you said that better than I could myself.

[caarirose.livejournal.com]

Same comment as your wife.

*hugs* I do love you

[nilchance.livejournal.com]

N'aww. *love* I love you, too.