nilchance | (no subject)

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I have issues. And I have neeeeeeds.

I was actually pumped to hear the S3 spoilers about the boys meeting up with two new female characters, because, hi! Femslash for the show! More het! There is no downside here. I was even, more the fool me, kinda hoping that the female hunter character might have visible strength. I'm not asking for a weightlifter here, but maybe the physique of a runner or a swimmer. I was even thinking that maybe Kripke and co might take the opportunity to incorporate more people of color into the show. (And yeah, I know that SPN is actually more diverse than most of TV.)

Yeah, um, not so much. And I understand, it's TV, they're playing to Peoria, whatever. We're in a country where America Ferrera and Sara Ramirez are considered fat. It's a TV culture where the average-looking guy is always special and gets the hot girl, and the reverse (like Ugly Betty) is revolutionary. That's how we roll.

But y'know what? I'm still cranky. I want to see more characters like Lenore or Ellen. I want to see a female hunter who looks like she could fuck your shit up and then go eat some pie. I want to see Sarah Connor doing pullups on her bed. I want belly-padding and wide hips and full cheeks and big butts, more cushion for the pushin', women built for comfort and not for speed.

I want OFC fic! Smut with Dean with curved women whose bellies and thighs are soft enough to cushion his head, who get doublechins when they giggle and who don't fuck around with salad. A big, bold Earth Mama who wears bright colors and probably has to stand on an applebox to make out with either of them, but who won't take any shit. A Rubenesque lush lady who wears red lipstick and high heels and has awesome cleavage, and who struts over and buys Sam tequila. Mmmmm.

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I wanted a Zoe on SPN! I'm still dissapointed about their casting choice. They went for sterotypical white girl and that sucks. Where are the hispanic chicks! I love America Ferrera.

Y'know? I mean, America's a melting pot, and Mexico and all these other cultures have such fantastic legends and stories for Kripke to delve into. Plus, diverse women! Yays!

It seems you've got a lot of fans on this. It seems the stick insects rule TV or at least that's what the PTB want to see.

I agree with you we need some more real women like Ellen, Lenore and Missouri on the show. Although with Dean going for enjoying his last year maybe they'll bring some in for him to have some fun with!!! I was trying to think of an American actress with the right attributes but came unstuck the only ones I could think of were older.

Hey, that's true! Dean and his last year sexathon. ;)

Gaaaah. This is so very sensual and sensory-appreciative. You can't convince me that Sam'n Dean haven't run across (and been interested by) these women after traveling dozens of times across the states. Mmmhmm.

Oh, yeah. I figure Dean likes WOMEN, women of all sizes and shapes. And Sam, well, Sam's not a monk. Anybody who doesn't remind him of Jess or Madison...

It would be so, so nice to see something like your rant (hehe) on tv. And realistic. I was kind of up on the fence when I heard about the new characters for the show, but I'm worried now that they'll be stereotypical booooring. As if we don't see that on practically every other show. And Sam may break size 0 chicks. Just saying - he's a big boy.

And while I'm sure Dean and Sam, like every other guy, lust after hot chicks from magazines and porn movies, I'm also sure, like every other guy, Sam and Dean also like real like women too.

Man, you just reminded me, Sarah Connor was the shiz-it!

When are they going to realise that real women are sexy?

Soon, I hope. When us women boot them upside the head with sexy.

God YES! Someone real and hard not bubblegum fake kickass. (your far more eloquent =) )

I was hoping for this when I first heard about Jo episodes. Sadly didn't quite happen now did it? Well at least not for me. I'm still hoping maybe for S3, but it's not looking too promising. I'm going to wait till I see though before I commit to all out bitching like a few of the fandom are doing.

...I'm still hoping Ellen will be back.

You're absolutely right-- I'm holding out judgment on the characters themselves until we see them in action. I just... I'm cranky about the missed opportunity. They could be the most awesome characters and actresses ever and I'd still be cranky.

I swear girl, preach it, preach on!! I have nothing to add here that hasn't already been said so I'll just do that 'head nodding' thing. I would LOVE to see a Queen Latifah type of woman on that show kicking ass (Missouri was awesome, but give me a strong girl with some *glam* and sex appeal and NOT the matronly mom type) -because let's be real here, even in a fictional sense, there is NO way you're gonna get me to believe Katie Cassidy is going to kick anyones ass. It took me two seasons to buy into Buffy -and even then, I mostly watched for Xander.

I do think Supernatural has been pretty good with adding more diverse characters -racially speaking that is, especially on a network that up until it merged with UPN was mostly just a vanilla / white bread kind of place, but I too was hoping that for one of the women they'd cast a dark / exotic woman. Just by reading the sides I had pictured Ruby as a Caribbean woman speaking with an accent and telling Sam that he was 'dizzy up in the head'.

Just by reading the sides I had pictured Ruby as a Caribbean woman speaking with an accent and telling Sam that he was 'dizzy up in the head'.
You too, huh? I was totally convinced that Ruby HAD to be diverse. I think the writers are excellent at adding diversity, but they have issues creating memorable female characters of color. (Missouri being the exception, obviously, but she also hasn't been around since Home.)

I hate the whole "Women in heels" thing, because do men understand HOW much they're killing thier women's feet with that. NO ONE could be a hunter in heels. Neither of those girls could actually do jack shit if they were in a fight, super powers would be needed and I really don't want buffy.

And while I have no issue with the long hiar (French braids and buns ftw) the whole thing of girls must look good while they hunt drives me batty.

And the reverse is true. Why should Kripke and the boys make them cheesecake posters with various shots of the boys shirtless. If we're going to go wacko on guys for not appreciating girls with more various phsyics then we should look at guys like that, or at least not pause and rewind to see Dean strip before his skin comes off.

I know, right? I think it's a serious issue when you can show Dean and Sam covered in mud and blood and just GUCK, but women must be cute and put-together at all times. That's not competence, that's unrealistic. I'd have a helluva lot more respect for a character who bitches because she's always got blood under her nails and she smells like dead guy than some perfectly coiffed and clean Wonderwoman.

I've been reading some of the comments and musing again, 'cause you know I can't keep off your lj.

There's nothing wrong with liking to look at hot girls or guys, or admiring them with shirts off-everybody likes the pretty. It's just that there's a wider variety of "hot" out there that we don't get to see on tv or in movies, female hotness in particular. The stick insects are attractive to many people; but tv, thus Kripke and co, apparently thinks *only* the stick insect types are hot. (Good name for them!) This is obviously not the case.

You *can* be heavy or rounded and healthily-toned. I like watching ballroom dancing & once saw this dancer (years ago) named Kimberly Mitchell; by comparison to the other women, she was chunky, but damn can she dance. She wore the same flashy, skimpy dresses they did & I remember my sister calling my mom & me to come back, commercial's over-Kimberly's on! And we rushed back to watch her again, fascinated to see this very curvy and completely unselfconscious bigger woman moving so gracefully.

Now for all I know, if I saw her up close, she wouldn't look so big-maybe it was just in comparison to the other, thinner women that made her look larger. But it *was* a noticable size difference and it made me feel...good.

I like the idea of female hunters. It makes sense particularly in the south, which has a strong tradition of women hunting with their men, and handling guns. I don't know why any female character has to establish her worth by kicking Dean's ass at something. Why can't she just be really good at her chosen job, have her own skills, and be a confident person-like a male character would be presented? Like it's nothing extraordinary that hey, this hunter's competent, capable, attractive and OMIGOD IT'S A WOMAN! Talk about your shock and awe! *snorts* It's like...they have to out-Dean him to be worthy or something, like a cariacature. (I don't notice anyone rushing to outresearch Sam to show how badass they are, unless I've missed something. Poor Sammy.)

I was wondering recently-what would happen if Dean met "Carmen" for real? He's got the memory of what it was like to have that relationship; I think it would be fascinating to see him meet her and have to deal with her not being *his* Carmen, or knowing him. Would she be as cool?

Pesti

You *can* be heavy or rounded and healthily-toned. I like watching ballroom dancing & once saw this dancer (years ago) named Kimberly Mitchell; by comparison to the other women, she was chunky, but damn can she dance. She wore the same flashy, skimpy dresses they did & I remember my sister calling my mom & me to come back, commercial's over-Kimberly's on! And we rushed back to watch her again, fascinated to see this very curvy and completely unselfconscious bigger woman moving so gracefully.
That's kind of funny, actually. The second I posted this entry, my wife started asking me for a list of hot women for her picspam, and one of the first to come up was Laila Ali. She and her sister (a plus sized patternmaker) are absolutely gorgeous, strong, amazing to watch on the dancefloor.

It's like...they have to out-Dean him to be worthy or something, like a cariacature.
That's a really good point. A female character can't stand on her own without being compared to Dean, who is a very masculine character; there are other strengths than male strengths! I kind of think of Arwen and Eowyn at that point: Eowyn is constantly compared to male warriors, but Arwen found a very female, very DIFFERENT kind of strength. Both are valid and amazing, but the Eowyn kind of strength comes with a price of constant comparison. It's hard as hell to portray the Arwen strength, grace and compassion and wisdom, without being completely overshadowed or sissified.

I would LOVE to see Dean meet Carmen for real.

I hate that it has to be either/or, most of all.

You're very right that the Eowyn strength comes at the price of constant comparison to men. If she fails, it's because she's a woman, not because she hasn't been taught how to do something, or is inexperienced or something, like a man could just as easily be. And if she succeeds, well, it must have been luck or favoritism or because she's a freak or something.

It's too easy to jump on the "girl power" bandwagon with this type of strength, imo. To get excited over images of Xena or Starbuck or movie!Eowyn and not see the prices they often have to pay to get where they are, and to judge other women as less because they can't or don't do the same.

Not only is it difficult to express the Arwen strength, but it too comes at the cost of comparisons-to men and to Eowyn!women. Since it *is* perceived as "womanly", it's therefore more passive (not in any negative way) and receptive/reactive to others' actions, rather than aggressive. So, an Arwen!woman is too-often considered weak. Yeah, but just wait until your ass is sick and needs nursing, or until you really need that heart-to-heart talk...who you gonna call then?

It reminds me of the debates among traditional homemakers and working women; both seeking validation so hard that they would undervalue and tear apart what the other type had to offer.

That's why I find the changes that Alan Jackson made to the LOTR scripts so very irritating. He meant well, but he conformed to the idea that Eowyn was better, because she fought with a sword-that's why he had to give Arwen one, too. Overlooking the fact that Eowyn abandoned her post and royal responsibilities, ignoring the *reasons* she was infatuated with Aragorn and why it passed when she met with Faramir's greater understanding/appreciation for her, and re-writing her personality from cold and controlled to perky and charming...movie!Eowyn was admirable in many ways, but she was *not* the woman that Tolkien created with such tenderness and compassion. And she didn't even get her romance with Faramir (poor, gutted fellow that he was, to talk about bad changes).

When I heard they cast Liv Tyler as Arwen, I thought she was a perfect choice-she has that sweet, melancholy beauty; and given how limited the role was, even a poor actress really couldn't do much to mess it up...and she's not a poor actress. The backstory of Aragorn & Arwen is so romantic, it was nice to see it brought more to the forefront. And then...there she was, tearing around on a horse (a better rider than the hero, of course) with a sword (because she had to be a warrior, too) and then with visions and lord, I was irritated. I don't know how she was perceived at the time the books were written; but I know in many circles now she's undervalued-overshadowed & sissified, as you say. Feminists are often the worst critics and it's sad to me that they'd regard her that way. No, Tolkien didn't write a lot about her, since the books weren't from either Elvish or Aragorn's pov; but what we know of her is very positive and loving. Why isn't that enough? Why does a sword (or gun, or any other penis-substitute) make a female character worth more?

I meant to reply to this a long time ago, but wanted to think about it first. I hope it makes sense...I'm not feeling good and having a hard time concentrating. These things always sound better in my head, anyway.

How do you like Ruby and Bela, now that they've been on the show for a bit?

Pesti

Word. Wordy McWord, even. You put into words most of my feelings on the Arwen situation.

My thoughts on Ruby and Bela are kind of... complicated. Okay.

Ruby: I LOVE that she's a demon. I love that Sam is courting her. I love the context that Sam is gambling his soul away as surely as Dean did, with a much more slippery slope. I love that Ruby seems to think she's going to be Sam's right hand demon when the revolution comes, and that she's evidence of Azazel not holding the patent for demonic plans. I love that the show is hinting at Sam as Antichrist, and that it's Dean who's going to make Sam fall. (Or descend, which is another awesome concept.) I like that Katie is making Ruby follow the demonic playbook, playing off Meg and YED's dark smarmy grittiness. That she's funny and cocky and oddly charming, but inhuman. So inhuman. But I don't know that I love Katie's performance otherwise. I love Supernatural's demons, and so I love Ruby, but she isn't bringing anything particularly new to the role. And that's okay, because of all the awesomeness that Ruby's character is creating with Sam's. (Okay, I have to say it: I don't find her hot. This is where being a lesbian screws with my critical view of the show.)

Bella: The anti-Ruby. I find the actress really, really, REALLY attractive. I find the concept of Bella interesting... once or twice. Not so prominent in the series. It's an American, working class, gritty show, and she throws me. I don't love that the writers are sacrificing Dean and Sam's character for Bella. I find it interesting that a woman shooting Sam doesn't immediately equal death, but I don't quite buy that Dean gave her his cell. I don't see where she fits. Although if my fanon is good and Bella is actually communing with Papa Winchester, that gives the boys a good reason to stick around. (And, well, I'd pay tickets to see John and Bella: The Traveling Comedy Tour. With John being as gruff and tactless as ever, calling her sweetheart a lot, and Bella being bitchy, and John refusing to let her work until she lets him contact his sons.)

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women's strengths: Eowyn vs Arwen

Re: women's strengths: Eowyn vs Arwen